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01miatals

26th June 2020, 12:27

Just picked up a 2020 Wrangler Unlimited sport with hard top. What a great car! I cant say enough great things about this car. It rides and handles well given it has 2 solid axles. Engine is strong and willing, if a bit unrefined (3.8 V6) with a great exhaust note and 8 sp ZF transmission. It has a ton of room inside. Took my family of 5 on a road trip this weekend and we sat all three kids in the back seat and had a ton of space in the back for a cooler and beach chairs.

Very friendly Jeep owners as well. Seems everyone has a jeep and they all give a wave as you drive by.

Anyway, seems like a great fun car for all seasons. Supposedly they have great resale value as well (perhaps not true of most FCA cars?)

emptyminded42

26th June 2020, 13:44

I picked up a then-new 2018 JLU Sport S back in October of last year and I love it so far, I agree with everything you've said (except the ZF, I have the 6-speed manual). FYI it is a 3.6L, not 3.8L - the larger engine was axed in 2011 in the prior generation.

I have a hard top, too and was pleasantly surprised at how comfortable it is on the highway, both ride quality and noise levels. Interior so far has been top-notch and I actually like the super-basic 5" Uconnect base radio - does what I need and no fuss.

I picked up a soft top and side steps/rock rails this summer and they've been great. Soft top is pretty easy to use - much easier now that I have side steps. I got the aftermarket Bestop Supertop Ultra and it is very high quality. They make the OE tops, so think of it as a $400 discount to not having the Mopar branding.

Loving the Jeep community so far - been very friendly and helpful. The forum isn't nearly as well-moderated as m.net, but JLwranglerforum is pretty nice overall. Far more political crap thrown around but overall people are friendly and helpful.

I used mine in the winter and it was excellent in the snow with the Michelin all-season light truck tires - I don't the A/Ts or rear LSD, FYI. They ride very well and quietly and have great wet traction, too. Really pleased with them even if they look lame compared to the A/Ts that a lot of Jeeps have, but for my use I don't need the A/Ts.

Resale isn't nearly as strong as the prior generations due to the massive production numbers with the new generation. However, it still should be pretty good and I haven't heard of any chronic problems yet besides the steering sloppiness (which seems to be a vehicle-by-vehicle issue and/or driver expectation problem). Mine is fine.

I love it so far and really see it as a 4-door Miata, minus the handling. It's really fun, lots of mods available, and a great community whether you take it off-road or just use it as a cruiser around town.

tom10167

26th June 2020, 13:55

where the pics!

Sweet ride, what color?

Is there a functional difference between the painted hardtop and the black plastic one or is all that extra money really for paint? My friend went from a JKU to a JL4 or whatever the 4 door versions are called now and said the difference is staggering, and his JK only had like 6k miles on it(bad accident)

IMO it truly sits in its own class. The G-Wagon is "better" in a lot of ways but for SUMMER BEACHIN the removable doors and roof are invaluable

Congrats.

01miatals

26th June 2020, 13:57

nice! Yes I am on that forum. Looking at soft tops as well!! Enjoy the ride.

baritone mike

26th June 2020, 15:10

Very friendly Jeep owners as well. Seems everyone has a jeep and they all give a wave as you drive by.

Anyway, seems like a great fun car for all seasons. Supposedly they have great resale value as well (perhaps not true of most FCA cars?)

Cardinal rule #1 of Jeep ownership: It is a Jeep. It is not a car, it is not a truck, and I probably wouldn't call it an SUV either.:p

Cardinal rule #2: If someone waves, wave back even if their Jeep isn't cool. You can choose when to initiate the wave (I personally go for any CJ/Wrangler Gladiator, the XJ Cherokee/Comanche and anything built before 1987 or that has been obviously modified including a Renegade once) but if you are waved at always wave back even if it is a hot pink 2wd Compass.

From one Wrangler owner to another.:wave: Hope you enjoy it.

MX5/XJ6

26th June 2020, 15:15

Very friendly Jeep owners as well. Seems everyone has a jeep and they all give a wave as you drive by.

Anyway, seems like a great fun car for all seasons. Supposedly they have great resale value as well (perhaps not true of most FCA cars?)

Congrats!

I would bet a dollar it is not a 3.8L, though. Sure hope not 'cuz those sucked :)

tvrbob

26th June 2020, 16:47

Very friendly Jeep owners as well. Seems everyone has a jeep and they all give a wave as you drive by.

Anyway, seems like a great fun car for all seasons. Supposedly they have great resale value as well (perhaps not true of most FCA cars?)Don't ever let the "very friendly Jeep owners" hear or see you refer to it as a "car." You will be murdered and they'll argue in court that it was justifiable homicide and if there's a very friendly Jeep owner on the jury your murderer will never be convicted. Other than that, ENJOY!!

MX5/XJ6

26th June 2020, 17:37

Don't ever let the "very friendly Jeep owners" hear or see you refer to it as a "car." You will be murdered and they'll argue in court that it was justifiable homicide and if there's a very friendly Jeep owner on the jury your murderer will never be convicted. Other than that, ENJOY!!

LMAO
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...................but true.

monkeylizard

26th June 2020, 18:11

Welcome to the other Cool Club. '19 black JLU hardtop here, also with the V6. With FCA's reputation for less-than-stellar build quality I chose to bet on the super solid engine that's been around for many years instead of the new Turbo 4cyl. The Turbo 4 is probably going to work out as a good choice too, but I know the Pentastar is as solid as FCA knows how to make them.

...it's kind of like Miatas. NA drivers only have to start the wave or headlight flash for other NA drivers. NB drivers have to start it for NA and NB drivers. NC drivers . . . well, nobody waves at them. :D

avs

27th June 2020, 16:18

Very friendly Jeep owners as well. Seems everyone has a jeep and they all give a wave as you drive by.

Anyway, seems like a great fun car for all seasons. Supposedly they have great resale value as well (perhaps not true of most FCA cars?)

How much off sticker were you able to pick the Jeep for? Any pandemic discount?

Litfuse

28th June 2020, 09:25

How much off sticker were you able to pick the Jeep for? Any pandemic discount?

13% off MSRP is considered to be a good discount on the JLs.

BassfreakBRG

28th June 2020, 13:32

Dammit, every time I try to move on from wanting a JLU one of these threads pops up.

I took one for a day long test drive 2 weeks ago. Brand new Sahara JLU, showed the sticker at $57K pre tax.

Before I left the lot to bring it for the test and swing it by my house to show my wife and do a car seat fit test they said "BTW its on sale for $53k!"

Not sure what a real OTD price would be but looking around, at used 2019s Sahara JLUs they are around $43K. Virtually all of them have a rental car use in their car fax history. But with only like 10,000 miles or so.

I found the ride suitably skittery. The V6 is very responsive, didnt expect the windshield to feel as shallow as it did. And i'm only 5'10". You really feel it.

It had the alpine sound system with sub woofer. It was good, but a bit boomy, not very clear on the highs. I fudged around with the 'equalizer' but it seems geared overall to thumpy music, no biggie though.

Handled sharp corners better than I thought it would.

Weighing the 'risk' of driving a previous rental Jeep vis a vis $10K in savings...

I've rented Jeeps in Belize and Hawaii. Mistakes were made.

monkeylizard

28th June 2020, 13:48

If you're patient, you can find one. I got my 2019 JLU Sahara V-6 with Safety Pkg (LED lighting, parking sensors, etc.), Alpine stereo (larger UConnect display too), hardtop (not color matched), black leather, cold weather package (heated seats and steering wheel) and remote start with about 8K miles on it for $40K. The only option I kind of wanted and now regret not getting is the keyless entry. I ididn't have it on my DD but my wife did. Now that her old DD with it is now my DD, I realize how much I underappreciated that feature. The Jeep is hers and she misses that keyless entry. That's the only thing I'd change about it. I looked for about 3 months pretty aggressively and had to drive to Knoxville from Nashville (about 2'ish hours) to get it. Great dealership experience which is probably a first for me.

MattAlley

28th June 2020, 13:52

13% off MSRP is considered to be a good discount on the JLs.

Wow! Thats a quick turnaround. When I bought my 2014 Willys, I emailed 9 area dealers with the deal I wanted. After a week two of them agreed to it. That was 14% off MSRP. Some people on the Jeep forum simply didnt believe that, thought I was lying. It was almost unheard of six years ago. Three dealers actually insisted on MSRP and wouldnt budge, for an ordered vehicle.

tvrbob

28th June 2020, 14:00

MattAlley

28th June 2020, 14:20

Well, that was before 6 years of thrice-yearly price hikes. You paid roughly 14% of [not off of] the MSRP of a 2020 equivalent.

They’ve definitely gone up a lot, but not as much as I suspected when I checked my model just now.

I got a basic 2-door Willys Wheeler with the only option being A/C. MSRP was $28,200.

The base 2-door WW today (2020 model) is $29,995, and AC is $1295, destination is $1495. So $32,785, or 4585 more than mine, approx 16%. 2.7% per year. A considerable figure, sure, but hovering around the inflation rate many of those years.

There is a kicker, in my particular case, that skews that number considerably — if you select A/C on the Willys Sport it forces an “upgrade” to auto transmission for $2700, so you’re up over 35k for my Jeep now, and that is indeed a huge jump. But given that most buyers then and now opted for the auto anyway, it doesn’t really matter. Except the auto was $1295 in 2014 and is just over twice that much now. :eek:

tvrbob

28th June 2020, 14:45

Theyve definitely gone up a lot, but not as much as I suspected when I checked my model just now.

I got a basic 2-door Willys Wheeler with the only option being A/C. MSRP was $28,200.

There is a kicker, in my particular case, that skews that number considerably if you select A/C on the Willys Sport it forces an upgrade to auto transmission for $2700, so youre up over 35k for my Jeep now, and that is indeed a huge jump. But given that most buyers then and now opted for the auto anyway, it doesnt really matter. Except the auto was $1295 in 2014 and is just over twice that much now. :eek:Not nearly as bad as I suspected.

BassfreakBRG

28th June 2020, 15:14

Except the auto was $1295 in 2014 and is just over twice that much now.

Yeah, but ZF now.

MattAlley

28th June 2020, 15:30

^^ Can you put something to rest that has plagued me lo, these 17 long years?

Are you a fisherman or a musician of the lower registers? I just need to know how to pronounce it in my head.

tvrbob

28th June 2020, 16:47

^^ Can you put something to rest that has plagued me lo, these 17 long years?

Are you a fisherman or a musician of the lower registers? I just need to know how to pronounce it in my head.B. Ass Frea K Burg. He's an extremely tough, illiterate co*ckney who devours hamburgers by the thousands.

Save The Manual Wagons!

28th June 2020, 16:57

Is everyone in this thread taking their Wranglers offroad, at least occasionally? If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every on-road metric?

I'm actually, genuinely curious. Not just trying to be a jerk.

MattAlley

28th June 2020, 17:13

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202017/.highres/1704%20Moab%2035.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202017/.highres/1704%20Moab%2027.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202017/.highres/IMG_2011.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202018/.highres/1804%20Moab%20Jeeping%202018%208.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/.highres/DSCF0514.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202018/.highres/DSCF1319.jpg

tvrbob

28th June 2020, 17:21

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202018/.highres/1804%20Moab%20Jeeping%202018%208.jpgYou couldn't pay me a million dollars to go 20 feet from the edge of that.

icrashbikes

28th June 2020, 17:29

Is everyone in this thread taking their Wranglers offroad, at least occasionally? If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every on-road metric?

I'm just popping in here, my first Miata doesn't come home till Tuesday. As an 8 year JK veteran though I will tell you offroad is only part of the Wrangler appeal. When you discuss on road metrics with a wrangler, you have to think inside the wrangler box. Here are a few:

The roof and doors come off. Mine come off in April and go on in September. This is the single most important thing. You can drive it on the road or in the rocks, but with the top and doors off it's better than anything else.

Big, fat sidewalls. Great for airing down and crawling, great for potholes, great for glass and nails, curbs, whatever. I drive my Jeep anywhere with utter indifference to the state of the road.

Steel and rubber. These are the only things people can hit. I'm not talking highway accidents, I'm sure it's a death trap. But door dings? Ha. pickup backs up into you? So what. Subaru clips you on the way out of the parking space? Sucks for the Scoob. I park right up front, next to anyone, I don't care. I LOVE seeing fresh door paint on my steel sliders.

It's modular. There's an arrangement for every season, every weather. I keep it simple with a hard top, hard doors, and a pair of fabric doors. There are enough combinations of those for any conditions. It's fun in the sun, fun in the snow, fun in the rain.

For those reasons at least, I consider my Jeep to be the peak in NJ motoring. There's never a day that I don't want to drive it and I have a GTI, a crotch rocket, and a loaded comfy pickup at my fingertips. I'm hoping the Miata will give the Jeep a run for its money.

Disclaimer - I do take my Jeep offroad and I wheel it hard. If I never took it offroad again though, you can bet I'd keep it as a daily.

Gratuitous flaunting:
https://live.staticflickr.com/4546/38319632561_0882430462_h.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/4310/35850786611_efcd059ed3_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50056121922_117ae6b583_h.jpg

BetweenMiatas

28th June 2020, 20:10

You couldn't pay me a million dollars to go 20 feet from the edge of that.

Yeah. Just because that ledge has jutted out there for millennia doesn't mean it won't break and fall off at any given moment. :D

Shacolaid

28th June 2020, 22:17

01Miatals, Congrats on the new Jeep. My family just returned from the Outer Banks, and there were Jeeps EVERYWHERE. Mostly top and doors off. I did not start counting until after I was there a few days, but I am sure there were over 500 if not more. Plus on the way home today we passed a bunch going the opposite direction.

My good friend was in Bradford PA this weekend for a Jeep event and did some rock crawling with his CJ.

Owning a real Jeep is on the bucket list. I have owned a Cherokee and a Liberty. The Cherokee was rock solid. The Liberty not so much.

MX5/XJ6

28th June 2020, 23:43

Yeah. Just because that ledge has jutted out there for millennia doesn't mean it won't break and fall off at any given moment. :D

Would a mid-luxury Mazda sedan even make it out there?

MX5/XJ6

28th June 2020, 23:48

You couldn't pay me a million dollars to go 20 feet from the edge of that.

Hmmm 20 feet from, yes I would for a Mil.

But not 2 feet from for a bazillion gajillion.

tvrbob

29th June 2020, 00:07

Hmmm 20 feet from, yes I would for a Mil.

But not 2 feet from for a bazillion gajillion.It might be worth it. Your fall would probably be broken by the giant pile of selfie-takers at the base of the cliff.

tvrbob

29th June 2020, 00:13

Would a mid-luxury Mazda sedan even make it out there?"Millenia. Near-luxury has never been so near the edge. In showrooms now. Amati 1000, coming to a dealer near you in 1994."

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 00:16

AMATI - "Miata" mixed around :thumbs:

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 00:22

It might be worth it. Your fall would probably be broken by the giant pile of selfie-takers at the base of the cliff.

That's what's so funny - funny strange not funny haha - he didn't fall off and you or I would not fall off, but you or I would have been absolutely convinced we would fall off. Like when you find you left an exterior door at your house unlocked overnight, or left a garage door open - you are happy to find your TVs and computers and model cars still on premise, but then you stop to think "Self, for this to even matter it would mean someone tries all your doors, every night".

LoveGiants

29th June 2020, 00:42

Congratulations!

I have a 2020 Recon and love it. The 2.0 engine is fantastic. The 3.6 is also very good and the 8A transmission is smooth. Im very happy with it.

I had a 2019 JLR that was bought back for bad steering and my 20 is remarkably better.

Some photos:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-JdX628j/0/500ebfbc/XL/012C2E24-3E54-4BC4-9EEC-83A1BF6501B6-XL.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-JdX628j/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-GvFn5gq/0/03002431/XL/050620D8-A598-4C7F-ADD4-5A9505BE2ED0-XL.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-GvFn5gq/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-XK7vb6j/0/d5cbd8e1/X2/PlummerRidge-X2.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-XK7vb6j/A)

Jesse H

29th June 2020, 00:56

This thread made me build a Sahara online as well as surf the web for any updates on the soon to be revealed Bronco.

emptyminded42

29th June 2020, 08:52

Dammit, every time I try to move on from wanting a JLU one of these threads pops up....

Weighing the 'risk' of driving a previous rental Jeep vis a vis $10K in savings...

I've rented Jeeps in Belize and Hawaii. Mistakes were made.

Haha, yeah, that's how I felt once I started seriously looking at them. Personally I'd probably save the $, but also know that you can shoot for ~5% below invoice/~12-15% off sticker nowadays but note the vast, vast majority of dealers won't discount much at all. I got $6k off my Unlimited Sport S, but it was on the lot for 14 months, a big yellow, manual-transmission 4-door with no options aside from the hard top - not very desirable.

I'd recommend browsing the jlwranglerforum pricing area - they have a lot of info and a lot of dealers who are willing to cut a deal even if you're out of state. Things are weird now with COVID-19 - prices seems to dip in May but they rose again when FCA pulled back dealer incentives.

Is everyone in this thread taking their Wranglers offroad, at least occasionally? If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every on-road metric?

I'm actually, genuinely curious. Not just trying to be a jerk.

Not yet. I hope to, but life is pretty chaotic right now and probably won't get around to it for a few years, if ever.

There's nothing else like it on the market right now. Full stop.

It's basically a 4-door Miata. RWD (until you select 4Hi/4Lo), manual transmission, convertible, with a large, friendly, and active community, it's a cultural icon, and the modding community is endless. It also looks cool. You can do pretty much anything in it except track driving. It looks cool. You can drive it in all weather conditions. It looks cool. You can take the doors off. It looks cool. But it's still plenty comfortable to commute in, drive kids around in, run to the grocery store, etc. It looks cool. Just driving it is fun and a lot of people smile when seeing one. It looks cool. They actually offer it in bright, fun colors. And it looks cool.

But mostly because it's fun.

It's not much different than a Miata. I hope everyone on this forum is taking their Miatas to autocross, track, and/or twisty mountain roads at least occasionally. If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every practical metric? The Miata doesn't have room for more than one passenger, it's tough to fit a Costco shopping trip in one, it rides rough, it's tiny, drivers don't respect you, it's loud on the highway, it's not fast, it doesn't have many amenities like dynamic suspension settings, ventilated seats, AWD, etc.

See? Maybe it's just fun. And it's more than the sum of its parts.

LoveGiants

29th June 2020, 09:05

^ I had to sell my Miata due to knee and shoulder issues.

My husband had a JKUR and I loved it and loved the trips to Colorado (❤️❤️❤️❤️) and Moab.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-QhL3KvM/0/148bc28d/XL/IMG_2760-XL.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-QhL3KvM/A)

I missed it when he sold it so when it became obvious the Miata wasnt working for me, the choice of what to get was clear.

My JL is my DD (although not going into the office these days) and grocery getter. I love it. I have the top down and doors off spring through fall. I did a very dusty trail and learned that there are times doors on area good thing [emoji23].

With around 600 miles on it:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-chwkHhn/0/7b112417/XL/IMG_1520-XL.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-chwkHhn/A)

monkeylizard

29th June 2020, 09:28

Is everyone in this thread taking their Wranglers offroad, at least occasionally? If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every on-road metric?

I'm actually, genuinely curious. Not just trying to be a jerk.

Mine (more accurately, my wife's) is strictly on-road. The reason we got it is simple: It's what she wanted. I think it was stupid to spend that much on a vehicle we'll never use for its intended purpose but in fairness she thought it was stupid to get the Miata. Now she has a vehicle she wants to go driving. To see her understand how I feel about my Miata is worth it, even if it was nearly 6 times as expensive as mine :thumbs:

As for its on-road manners, the JL is a huge improvement over the JK.

BetweenMiatas

29th June 2020, 09:50

Would a mid-luxury Mazda sedan even make it out there?

Good question. We'll have to ask Matt. When my husband and I were in Moab with the Miata, we didn't leave the paved roads.

BetweenMiatas

29th June 2020, 09:52

No one's gonna steal your model cars... :D

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 10:22

No one's gonna steal your model cars... :D

Obviously not, what with the intricate system of lasers similar to your favorite diamond heist caper----

MattAlley

29th June 2020, 10:32

Good question. We'll have to ask Matt. When my husband and I were in Moab with the Miata, we didn't leave the paved roads.

I wouldn't want to take a stock, unmodified Rubicon up Top of the World trail. I think a Mazda Millenia would struggle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq7Z0Qrv2VQ

emptyminded42

29th June 2020, 10:43

I wouldn't want to take a stock, unmodified Rubicon up Top of the World trail. I think a Mazda Millenia would struggle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq7Z0Qrv2VQ

I've got rock rails now on my JLU Sport S and all-season tires. I think I'm ready for it. ;)

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 11:00

I think a Mazda Millenia would struggle.

Oh I meant the Miller Cycle one.

Save The Manual Wagons!

29th June 2020, 11:25

But mostly because it's fun.

It's basically a 4-door Miata. Except that it's a big, tall, heavy truck... :confused: My grandpa's long-gone F-150 fits that criteria too (RWD manual) except for the convertible part.

It is different from the Miata because the Miata a road car. Every time I drive it I'm using it for its intended purpose. The Miata's compromises make it more fun on the road. The Wrangler's make it better offroad. (I should also note that I consider "tiny" and "not many amenities" to be great advantages.)

In fairness, it was hard for me to understand the near-universal praise for the Miata before I drove one. I did drive my roommate's old Wrangler years ago. It never left pavement and she also described it as "fun." I deemed it the worst road-going vehicle I'd ever been unfortunate enough to drive. Maybe I should try a newer one.

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 11:30

I deemed it the worst road-going vehicle I'd ever been unfortunate enough to drive. Maybe I should try a newer one.

Now THAT was probably a 3.8L example :rofl:

express_wagon

29th June 2020, 11:51

It's basically a 4-door Miata. Except that it's a big, tall, heavy truck... :confused: My grandpa's long-gone F-150 fits that criteria too (RWD manual) except for the convertible part.

Fun is subjective. I enjoy driving a pickup, Wrangler, as much as driving a Miata. There's a place and time for competent transportation. Then there are times I just like vehicles with character.

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 11:59

Fun is subjective. I enjoy driving a pickup, Wrangler, as much as driving a Miata. There's a place and time for competent transportation. Then there are times I just like vehicles with character.

True - every drive is not solo, on curvy backroads. Those that are, I couldn't be happier than to be in a Miata. But sometimes you need to carry 6 or 7 people, or a ton (literally) of rock, or a snowstorm is on the way. Having the correct tool for whatever chore is nice, and a lack of ultimate road feel/handling is easy to forgive in those situations.

MattAlley

29th June 2020, 12:04

It's basically a 4-door Miata. Except that it's a big, tall, heavy truck... :confused: My grandpa's long-gone F-150 fits that criteria too (RWD manual) except for the convertible part.

TL: DR Synopsis: Jeeps are fun to drive on pavement.

No attempt here to convert you -- just another input for your consideration. Even though I off-road my Jeep more than most, living 1700 or so miles away from the areas I like to take it means I still only use it off of pavement maybe 3-4% of its miles, if that. (That would be about 1200-1500 miles off-road, which sounds about right. A higher percentage of the hours driven would be offroad because you go so dang slow.)

So, whatever the exact metrics, I spend the vast, overwhelming majority of my Jeep time trundling along asphalt or concrete roads. As bad as a Jeep is on OEM 32" tires, it's much worse on 35" Kenda MTs. With the exception of shocks, nearly everything I've done to it has degraded the on-road performance. Nothing about the usage metrics of my 2014 Jeep make any case for further degrading its on-road performance in search of better off-road capabilities. In fact, most of the places I like to take my Jeep, I can rent a Wrangler that's built as well as mine is. Even when I'm out there for two weeks at a time, my "special friends of Rick" discounted rate on a 2-door rental is less than the cost of shipping my Jeep out and back.

And yet...

The 2014 Jeep sits in my garage between a delightful-to-drive 2014 MINI Cooper S Clubman Hyde Park Edition and a "maybe the best road car I've ever driven" 2016 Porsche GT4. The MINI has 34,000 miles on it (but only 5,000 of those are mine, over the past two years). The Porsche has 12,000 on it, acquired over 4 years. Add the miles I put on the three Porsches I've had while owning the Jeep and you get 24,000.

And the Jeep? Over 36,000. All but, say, 1500 of that on-road. Pull out the two drives to Moab in it for the purpose of taking it off-road, and you're left with something like 28,000 road-miles in the Jeep when I could have easily taken something demonstrably "better". 28,000 discretionary miles in the Jeep, about 29,000 in "something else" during that time. And to be fair, since I pulled out the "had to take the Jeep because I was going rock-crawling" miles out of its total, I ought to remove the "had to take the Porsche because I was going to the track or mountains to drive a sportscar" miles as well, but I'm feeling generous.

What that tells me is that, with no dog in the hunt (I'm not trying to "prove" to myself that one car is better or whatever, whenever I choose the set of keys I'm going to use that day), I think the Jeep would be more fun than the other two about 1/2 the time I drive on-road. There are plenty of people, I suppose, who would never take the Jeep if they had access to the other two. I get it. But a lot of people also "get" why the Jeep keys would be the first I'd reach for lots of times. In fact, over two million JKs alone were sold in the twelve model years it was available, averaging about 180,000 a year over that time. And amazingly (and unique among mass-market vehicles, as far as I know) that number kept substantially rising annually for at least the first nine model years, possibly ten (hard to pin down the numbers exactly for 2016-2018.) So lots of folks opted to ignore its obvious deficiencies because they felt it offered something else that outweighed them.

So either you will never get it (in the sense of agree because you have experienced whatever "it" is and converted) or you are just the right week in Hawaii or San Diego or Telluride or Moab away from saying to your wife, "Sally, now I see what all the fuss was about. At least 30% of the fun we had this vacation was the rental JL; what say we spring for one and see if we like it in real life?"

baritone mike

29th June 2020, 12:04

I deemed it the worst road-going vehicle I'd ever been unfortunate enough to drive. Maybe I should try a newer one.

My '88 Wrangler pretty much fits that description. It is great fun to cruise around town in or down the back roads in though. I also occasionally take it off road.

If you don't find driving a Jeep fun, maybe it just isn't the vehicle for you.:dunno: The only redeeming road going quality my Jeep has going for it is below about 45mph the open top feel is much better than the Miata's (above 45, the brick like aerodynamics make the wind noise and buffeting a little unpleasant, to put it in comparison my Miata with the top down at 65mph is a quite experience). Also with my Bilstein shocks it actually rides a little better than stock, but with 4 leaf springs and two solid axles with roughly 140lbs of wheel/tire on each axle "better than stock" does not equal "good". It rides slightly better than an empty 3/4 ton truck.

Save The Manual Wagons!

29th June 2020, 12:21

If you don't find driving a Jeep fun, maybe it just isn't the vehicle for you.:dunno:

That makes sense, and I can respect that other people do find it fun.

Thanks also to Matt for the additional perspective. I will try not to be so quick to judge.

In closing, here's a picture from last week of my Miata dirty after doing some (barely) offroad driving. If only it had more ground clearance!

MX5/XJ6

29th June 2020, 12:36

If only it had more ground clearance!

I hear that often about the NC :thumbs:

emptyminded42

29th June 2020, 13:29

It's basically a 4-door Miata. Except that it's a big, tall, heavy truck... :confused: My grandpa's long-gone F-150 fits that criteria too (RWD manual) except for the convertible part.

You left out the iconic styling, the community, the whole ability to remove the doors, and dismissed the convertible-ness as if it's not a absolutely huge part of the vehicle. It's like the Miata - far more than the sum of its parts. Sure, on paper it's just a body-on-frame midsize truck with no permanent roof, a corporate standard V6 with solid front and rear axles, etc. but it's way more fun than you'd expect.

The Wrangler is a road car, too. Its compromises makes it more fun on the road AND more capable off-road. It's been getting better with every passing generation at doing both on and off-road driving.

Being tiny is not an advantage to those of us with a family to take to/from daycare, etc. The Jeep is FAR more practical and useful than my NA and far more comfortable to drive. It's probably just as engaging as well, just in a different way. It's just simply fun.

Unless that Wrangler was a 2018 or newer, you have no idea how much better they've gotten. It's a pretty dang comfortable place to be and it's nice to drive, IMO. It's probably similar to the Miata in that you either "get it" or you don't. I didn't for the longest time until I learned more about just how good the JL (newest generation) is.

BetweenMiatas

29th June 2020, 13:57

I wouldn't want to take a stock, unmodified Rubicon up Top of the World trail. I think a Mazda Millenia would struggle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq7Z0Qrv2VQ

Most of that looks no worse than some of the farm roads I drove on as a yute. However, there are a few fiddly bits in the video that a Millennia would be unable to negotiate. I assume they are mandatory if you want to get to the top?

JBKauai

29th June 2020, 14:46

Yeah. Just because that ledge has jutted out there for millennia doesn't mean it won't break and fall off at any given moment. :D
Haven't you ever seen any Roadrunner cartoons? :rolleyes:

MattAlley

29th June 2020, 15:21

Its a three-hour climb. The video was about five minutes, and most of that was of that yahoos face. :D Theres a whole lot of Top Of The World that would be uncomfortable but doable with a stock jeep, and theres very little that would be doable at all with a stock CRV, and there are indeed quite a few fiddly bits that I wouldnt like to take a stock Rubicon up, unless of course it was yours! ;)

Red_5

29th June 2020, 15:28

How’s the overall reliability of JKs and JLs? I have a ‘08 Chrysler SUV that has been the worst vehicle I’ve ever owned and it has less than 80k miles.

I’ve been thinking about selling my Miata race car and getting an off-roadable vehicle. Obviously, Jeros are on that list.

monkeylizard

29th June 2020, 17:20

It's like the Miata - far more than the sum of its parts. Sure, on paper it's just a body-on-frame midsize truck with no permanent roof, a corporate standard V6 with solid front and rear axles, etc. but it's way more fun than you'd expect.

^^Speaks the truth

Explaining your Miata to someone who doesn't "get it" is just like explaining your Jeep to someone who doesn't "get it". On paper neither makes much sense but both packages manage to equal loads of fun and devotion. I was solidly in the "doesn't get it" camp on the Jeep for years. I had friends with them and never understood their love affair with them. Once Mrs. 'lizard decided she HAD to have one and it came home to live with us, now I "get it".

BetweenMiatas

29th June 2020, 17:24

Haven't you ever seen any Roadrunner cartoons? :rolleyes:

Right?! I don't think my luck would be any better than Wile E. Coyote's!

BetweenMiatas

29th June 2020, 17:26

But you say a person can rent built Jeeps there... hmm... I'd like to go see that view sometime, safely back from the edge, you understand. :D

MattAlley

29th June 2020, 18:34

But you say a person can rent built Jeeps there... hmm... I'd like to go see that view sometime, safely back from the edge, you understand. :D

PM me when you're ready and I'll hook you up.

Or, I'll shout at you next time I'm going and you and the CPA can hop a crop-duster to SLC.

MattAlley

29th June 2020, 18:55

Oh I meant the Miller Cycle one.

Oh, there you go again, walking it back once somebody calls you out on it. There was absolutely NO mention of the Miller motor in your original comment. Of course that changes everything.

MattAlley

29th June 2020, 19:03

It's basically a 4-door Miata. Except that it's a big, tall, heavy truck... :confused: My grandpa's long-gone F-150 fits that criteria too (RWD manual) except for the convertible part.

You are completely right, of course, about this. But so was the person who originally compared the two. The reason is that Miata's are many things; even "the essence" of Miata is many different things. Jeeps align with some of that essence, and don't align at all with some of it.

Miata:

Small
Light
nimble
fun
convertible
readily moddable
looks great in bright colors
is usually underestimated by the gen pop
decent gas mileage
slick-shifting 5/6 speed
attractive yet disarming to others when they see you in it
can easily be made much more hardcore than it comes from the factory
offers about the best value for a competent sporting vehicle
reliable

I'd suggest the Jeep aligns with the Miata on the Magenta ones.

BetweenMiatas

29th June 2020, 19:12

Or, I'll shout at you next time I'm going and you and the CPA can hop a crop-duster to SLC.

That sounds delightful! Please do so!

(Most crop-dusters are single-seater, though... we'll probably have to take the Jaaag.)

JT58

30th June 2020, 07:49

No problems with the steering like on the Gladiators? Is the steering the steering box the same as in the Gladiator? Or has the steering issue been resolved? If so, what are the safe years to buy?

I still like the new Wranglers and the Gladiators- pricey- but not going to pay that kind of money and get crappy or defective steering.

emptyminded42

30th June 2020, 08:54

No problems with the steering like on the Gladiators? Is the steering the steering box the same as in the Gladiator? Or has the steering issue been resolved? If so, what are the safe years to buy?

I still like the new Wranglers and the Gladiators- pricey- but not going to pay that kind of money and get crappy or defective steering.

No clue. FWIW (not much) my Aug 2018 build date MY18 Wrangler Unlimited has perfectly fine steering. Seems to be fairly uncommon and random issue. Of course everyone who has a problem will complain endlessly about it and the rest of us have nothing to say since it's not a problem.

Not sure if the Gladiator has a different front end - I think they're the same, though. I know the rear ends are completely different. I haven't heard of a trend that the Gladiators are better or worse than the JLs but I'm also not on the JT (Gladiator) specific forum. I think it's like the IMS issue with early '00s Porsches - it's been blown way out of proportion.

MX5/XJ6

30th June 2020, 09:09

Of course everyone who has a problem will complain endlessly about it

Yeah man, give em a pass, I mean it's only steering. :rofl:

twowheeled

30th June 2020, 09:43

Is everyone in this thread taking their Wranglers offroad, at least occasionally? If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every on-road metric?

I'm actually, genuinely curious. Not just trying to be a jerk.

yea put me firmly in the camp of "I don't get it, must be a jeep thing"

I used to drive a 4runner on 33's exclusively on pavement when I was younger. I would covet these off road rigs. So the first trip to Moab we took to rent a rubicon I was ecstatic. We were finally going to get to play on some of the most famous rock crawling trails on a Jeep that had the catalog thrown at it. Front and rear lockers, all skid plated up with rock rails, winch, farm jack, sitting on 38" bead locks. Of course we took the roof and doors off and left them at the hotel.

My driving impressions were, wow this thing positively feels like farm equipment. Why are we knocking shoulders? Why can I see sheet metal in the interior? And honestly after a day of wheeling it, including winching it up some ridiculous rock faces, doing the obligatory "flex" photographs, we both came away kind of disappointed at the fun factor. The marketing and styling has you believe the jeep is some offroad tank. But it suffers from physics like any other truck/SUV. You may think you will be blasting through trails in a cloud of dust but 4wheeling is actually just gingerly easing the car over obstacles like watching a senior lower themselves into a hot tub. Listening for scrapes and strange noises and trying not to break expensive bits.

I think the jeep occupies a very solid niche where owners are looking for more than a vehicle. They are looking for an image to portray and a hobby to spend time tinkering. But also without a horse in this race, despite seriously considering buying a jeep because of how cool they look, the truth is they are terrible to drive. Roof off creates some of the worst buffeting ever. Driving around at 40mph feels like I'm in one of those cash grab wind tunnels. Taking the doors off is a ridiculous novelty, I've never wanted to look down at see the pavement nor do I ever want more wind blowing on my legs and feet. And jeeps suck in the snow, as in the snow we get in the real world on pavement, not venturing out into a snowdrift in 4-lo to mess around. Short wheel base, old school transfer case, and poor tire selection all contribute to this.

we have a similar phenomenon in the motorcycle world in ADV bikes, these big heavy offroad inspired bikes that people buy after watching Long Way Round. All kitted up with panniers and crash bars and skid plates and knobbies, 700lb of bike originally purchased for that 6 month ride you had planned for Alaska to Argentina but now ferries you to starbucks.
https://www.advpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2015-BMW-R1200GS-Upgrades.jpg

emptyminded42

30th June 2020, 10:44

Yeah man, give em a pass, I mean it's only steering. :rofl:

I think a lot of it is unreasonable expectations. It's a solid front axle body-on-frame truck. It's not going to be tight, direct, or particularly communicative vs. sedans that most are used to driving. But since I don't know how a "bad" one feels, I can't really say for sure. Mine drives fine for what it is, IMO, and it far exceeded my expectations on driving feel, ride quality, and overall comfort.

Anyone commenting on how disappointing Wranglers were even 2 years ago needs new information. I wouldn't consider a JK or anything earlier. The JL is a huge, huge improvement, even compared to the later JKs with the Pentastar 3.6L and the updated interior. The new gen is miles ahead of it. Sure, the forums are plagued with complains over the steering and the ESS system but look at the ND with the reputed glassy manual gearbox. Every vehicle has its issues. But I think the JL/JT steering thing has a lot to do with unreasonable expectations.

MattAlley

30th June 2020, 11:01

... But it suffers from physics like any other truck/SUV. You may think you will be blasting through trails in a cloud of dust but 4wheeling is actually just gingerly easing the car over obstacles like watching a senior lower themselves into a hot tub. Listening for scrapes and strange noises and trying not to break expensive bits.

Very true. One of the realities of off-roading that I've discovered over the past decade is that the actual practice of getting over an obstacle has appeal, but it's limited appeal, and the appeal diminishes with every successful obstacle crossed. Sure, there are some trails that I do just for the technical aspects, and the scenery is minimal or nothing. But I do less and less of that, and almost always now use the Jeep to actually get someplace I'd like to be but can't get there otherwise (unless it's on foot or bicycle). Then, when there's a "bigger picture" goal at the end of the trail, the obstacles take on a different flavor for me, not being done for their own sake but because they stand between me and the place I want to be. And so these days I pretty much take every bypass if a trail has them -- I've "proved" my ability to get up many of the high-difficulty elements around Moab and parts of the Mojave, and now I just want to enjoy a trail with some challenge but mostly with a huge view or other experience at the end.

Here are just a few:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/.highres/image.jpg6_2.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/.highres/image_15.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/.highres/1604Moab%208%20Final%20Week%206_1.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/.highres/image.jpg6.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/image.jpg2.jpg

(Hey, Welsh hitchhikers can be part of the scenery, no?)

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/image_7.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/image_4.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202017/.highres/image_8.jpeg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/1704_Moab_(97).JPG

MattAlley

30th June 2020, 11:04

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/1804_Moab_Jeeping_2018_(5).JPG

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202018/.highres/IMG_1585.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202018/.highres/IMG_1565.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202018/.highres/IMG_1562_1.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/1604Moab_8_Final_Week_(61).JPG

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/1604Moab_8_Final_Week_(58).JPG

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/1604Moab_8_Final_Week_(66).JPG

twowheeled

30th June 2020, 13:13

some very beautiful scenery you guys have down there. The funny thing with a jeep, 4runner, FJ, etc is a lot of drivers don't learn to properly offroad until they own one. But all those techniques can be used to drive any other car/ute/suv well off the beaten path enough to get most people to those remote lookouts and camping spots. We would pull up in the prius next to a bunch of trucks/4x4s/subaru crosstreks, getting funny looks, but in reality we were only a few miles down a gravel road.

One day in moab we were on a pretty challenging jeep trail on our dirt bikes. We finished the trail and got back to the entrance and there was a jeep high centered about 50 feet from the start of the trail. These 4 teenagers were driving what looked like a base model early 2000's jeep, with the tiny road tires. They somehow decided to choose one of the harder trails clearly marked for high clearance, locking diffs, etc. We had a pretty good laugh about how clueless they were. We had to convince them to trust us when we let air out of their tires, and teach the young guy how to put it in 4LO and feather the throttle. After we got them out we told them to drive straight out and don't come down any trails marked like this.

MX5AMG

30th June 2020, 13:58

As I've commented in other threads mentioning Wranglers, we ended up with ours "accidentally". BMW X5 was in the shop and they were out of loaners. Sent me to Enterprise (they covered it) who wanted to put me in a Sonata or something like that. I noticed they had a JKU on the lot. Asked... Can I take that? I figured it would be fun and different.

Wife and kids absolutely LOVED it. Big mistake. Ended up getting a '17 Freedom, loaded. Good lease deal. $328-ish a month 12/36. $41K sticker. The Wrangler forums are very unfriendly to people who lease. Oh well. It worked out well. Was due to return in March, during pandemic. Both working from home. Kids schooling from home and no activities and we'd bought my daughter a TDI Sportwagen. So... we've got three cars now, including the Miata until Nov-ish so no need for a 4th. Gave it back but...

Will definitely go get a JL when we need it and feel comfortable spending the money.

BetweenMiatas

30th June 2020, 14:38

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/z289/NoGaBiker/Moab%202016/.highres/1604Moab%208%20Final%20Week%206_1.jpg

Um... you got your foot in that one. :p

MX5/XJ6

30th June 2020, 14:43

Wrangler forums are very unfriendly to people who lease.

How do they feel about people who rent one? It's the same thing-

MattAlley

30th June 2020, 15:30

Um... you got your foot in that one. :p

That's actually my wife's boot -- I'm on her shoulders.

MattAlley

30th June 2020, 15:35

The Wrangler forums are very unfriendly to people who lease. Oh well.

How do they feel about people who rent one? It's the same thing-

Hmmm... I've never noticed that, but I guess I haven't opened many threads in Wrangler.com JK section that are about pricing or lease/buy questions.

That said, I'd think it would be SUPER hard to frequent any of the Jeep fora if you have a leased Jeep that you feel you can't modify. Lots of temptation...

BetweenMiatas

30th June 2020, 15:40

That's actually my wife's boot -- I'm on her shoulders.

En pointe?

MattAlley

30th June 2020, 16:19

En pointe?

https://st4.depositphotos.com/3122905/20995/i/1600/depositphotos_209952844-stock-photo-happy-woman-carrying-man-back.jpg

BetweenMiatas

30th June 2020, 19:11

^Not quite as impressive as what I was imagining, but it'll do.

Dry Martini

1st July 2020, 08:04

The Wrangler is a road car, too. Its compromises makes it more fun on the road AND more capable off-road. It's been getting better with every passing generation at doing both on and off-road driving.

I would rather have a modded CJ with a V8, as I found those more than comfortable.

memebag

1st July 2020, 09:01

Is everyone in this thread taking their Wranglers offroad, at least occasionally? If not, can you explain why you would want to pay a lot of money for something so deficient in every on-road metric?

I'm actually, genuinely curious. Not just trying to be a jerk.

I've never owned a Wrangler, but I want one very much. I don't want to drive it off-road. I want to drive it with the top and doors off. I want to drive it through flooded roads, which happens here more than you might imagine. I want to haul my bike in it, along with folding chairs, a cooler and a pop up canopy.

It just looks like a lot of fun.

Dry Martini

1st July 2020, 09:15

You couldn't pay me a million dollars to go 20 feet from the edge of that.

Why? Are you afraid that after a few million years of that rock formations existence, it is going to suddenly move?

I have done some sketchy $hit, without any pay at all. :D

MX5AMG

1st July 2020, 10:39

Hmmm... I've never noticed that, but I guess I haven't opened many threads in Wrangler.com JK section that are about pricing or lease/buy questions.

That said, I'd think it would be SUPER hard to frequent any of the Jeep fora if you have a leased Jeep that you feel you can't modify. Lots of temptation...

We leased for several reasons. One being... We were unsure how much we'd love it and all its quirks after several years. Two... I knew the JL was coming out right around when our lease would be done. Turns out we loved it more than we thought so we'll get a JL down the road. Just don't need it right now.

Yeah... there are many anti-lease folks on several wrangler forums. You can't mod it! They hold their value so well leasing doesn't make sense! Because the residual was so high, the payment:MSRP ratio was very favorable. We didn't do enough hard-core off roading to require mods. The only mods I did was mount a hitch to carry a bike rack or cargo tray thingy and grab handles on the A-pillars. I took those off in less than an hour when we turned it back in...

We'll definitely get another and we test drove one with the turbo four *right* before the crap hit the fan. With all the uncertainty, we decided just to turn it in and not replace right now. We'll buy this time.

Dartboy

1st July 2020, 10:54

Why? Are you afraid that after a few million years of that rock formations existence, it is going to suddenly move?

It happens...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_of_the_Mountain

I bet if you looked down from that ledge Matt's sitting on you'd see a big pile of rubble form all the other stones that fell from that area. Or maybe you'd just trip over an untied shoelace or something...

A few years back, I was on a trip to Ireland at the Cliffs of Moher. Looking up from the boat at all the idiots walking along the edge, unaware of how undercut they were. Shortly after, I became one of those idiots walking along the edge :)

MattAlley

1st July 2020, 11:09

I bet if you looked down from that ledge Matt's sitting on you'd see a big pile of rubble form all the other stones that fell from that area.

Absolutely. It's sobering. Many are larger than the one that juts out. This picture only shows one of my ledge's former neighbors (dead center, bottom edge) but there are many more to the right. And definitely check your bootlaces before exiting the vehicle. :D

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/z289/NoGaBiker/1704_Moab_(69).JPG

Save The Manual Wagons!

1st July 2020, 11:21

When I was in Ireland my cousin made sure I stayed far enough away from the edge of cliffs. Apparently, people occasionally die when the land they're standing on falls away.

BetweenMiatas

1st July 2020, 14:37

It just looks like a lot of fun.

What's stopping you?

BetweenMiatas

1st July 2020, 14:38

I have done some sketchy $hit, without any pay at all. :D

Go on...

Dry Martini

1st July 2020, 15:01

Go on...

The statute of limitations has not run out and some are just too embarrassing to mention. :D

MX5Jeff

1st July 2020, 15:16

I rented a Jeep on the Big Island of Hawaii once--it was a basic 2-door Sport. It was a lot of fun to drive around for the week and got me thinking about getting one. I still might at some point.

Positives: comfortable for the driver. Better handling and driving experience on the road than I thought it would be. Quite peppy. Very good gas mileage. Once I got the hang of it, could get the vinyl doors/windows off or on in 5". With the windows off and the top on it was a great way to keep the blazing sun off your scalp.

Negatives: stereo crummy, no bluetooth (hey it was 2019!?!). Rear seat room lousy. Virtually no storage behind the rear seats. While good in theory, keeping the top and sides off for a long time is a problem when weather comes up quickly. I heard thunder and had to run out to put them on in a hurry one night. I am often amused at the options for tops, and the lengths people go to remove them, store them, etc.--pulley systems for instance.

That said, I would consider one if I didn't want a truck bed and the ability to tow several thousand pounds. I got a Tacoma OR, which is not only more versatile, but quite a bit cheaper than a similarly equipped Jeep. (Admittedly no convertible option, but I have a moonroof...) The price on those things...

The Gladiator might be a good choice for someone in my situation, but A) they are crazy expensive for what you get and B) I think they look ill-proportioned. Put a bed on a 2-door Jeep, and I'd be on that like a fly on stink. Sadly, it will never come to this market.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/cimg/www.jk-forum.com/1600x900_85-1/849/jeep-gladiator-j6-co-2_1600x0w-478849.jpg

BetweenMiatas

1st July 2020, 19:59

The statute of limitations has not run out and some are just too embarrassing to mention. :D

Awww! :D

Dartboy

1st July 2020, 20:48

You can buy a kit to turn a Wrangler Unlimited into a pickup, or buy one already converted.
https://gr8tops.com/shop/jeepmodels/jk-wrangler/jeep-wrangler-jkute-truck-conversion-kit

The Gladiator is a bit odd looking, but it's rally starting to grow on me.

LoveGiants

2nd July 2020, 00:48

I had one of the bad ones and it was bought back due to the steering. It had around three inches of play, pulled and wandered (required constant corrections), felt loose, and didnt return to center. It was miserable to drive on the freeway. Nothing we or the dealer did fixed it.

My husband had a 12 JKUR that we drove to Colorado and Utah a couple times, so we werent new to Jeeps. My 19 was a mess.

My 20 is night and day different and I love it.

LoveGiants

2nd July 2020, 00:52

It just looks like a lot of fun.

It IS so fun! I love itespecially with the doors off and top down. I have a Spiderweb Shade (mesh shade that stays under the soft top) that helps with sun.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-LqgcDVM/0/a9a5cb07/X3/IMG_1788-X3.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-LqgcDVM/A)

MX5Jeff

2nd July 2020, 16:54

You can buy a kit to turn a Wrangler Unlimited into a pickup, or buy one already converted.
https://gr8tops.com/shop/jeepmodels/jk-wrangler/jeep-wrangler-jkute-truck-conversion-kit

The Gladiator is a bit odd looking, but it's rally starting to grow on me.

Wow that's cool!

I saw a Gladiator with ginormous tires on it--IDK, 36" or something--in Star Wars Stormtrooper white, and I have to admit it looked pretty cool, in a giant LEGO-ish kind of way. I doubt it would be fun to drive on the highway though.

memebag

2nd July 2020, 20:39

What's stopping you?

Money. Wife gets to pick the next car and no matter how hard I try I can't get her interested in a Jeep. When it's my turn again we only have 2 spaces in the garage, so I'd need money to buy a house with a bigger garage or space for a bigger garage. Plus by then there might be a new Miata that I want more than my NC.

But if I had a bunch of spare money I'd have a Jeep.

MX5/XJ6

3rd July 2020, 20:38

Money.

Wow - small world - that is literally the only thing standing between me and the yacht I want. Money for vessel, money for slip, money for crew.

I think if I had those monies, I could talk the wife into it.

https://phoenicianboat.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/benetti-bnow-50m-superyahcts-phoenicianboat.jpg

MX5/XJ6

3rd July 2020, 20:47

Why? Are you afraid that after a few million years of that rock formations existence, it is going to suddenly move?

It's called Fear of Heights, not Fear of Stuff Moving.

BetweenMiatas

3rd July 2020, 20:57

It's called Fear of Heights, not Fear of Stuff Moving.

It's actually Fear of The Sudden Stop at The Bottom, but that's generally considered too long to say.

MX5/XJ6

3rd July 2020, 21:06

It's actually Fear of The Sudden Stop at The Bottom, but that's generally considered too long to say.

I heard a song recently along those lines....."Falling feels like flying until something-something...."

BetweenMiatas

3rd July 2020, 21:09

I heard a song recently along those lines....."Falling feels like flying until something-something...."

Sounds like a country song.

MX5/XJ6

3rd July 2020, 22:39

Sounds like a country song.

I'm in my Americana phase, mighta been Chris Stapleton.

MX5/XJ6

3rd July 2020, 22:49

Yup found it - great song-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl4c0kZUm2M

aaonms

5th July 2020, 13:39

As a 21+ year Jeep owner, I can only comment that both vehicles are fun and have large aftermarket support to say nothing of the very hospitable groups/clubs.
I equate the Miata to minimalist backpacking and the Jeep to car camping as I typically have nearly everything that I need in the Jeep to go for a couple of days should the need or whim arise.
Both of my Jeeps were custom ordered as opposed to what was on the lot or via the Website. I found that there was more flexibility than simply ordering option packages. The itch is getting stronger to replace my 2-door JKR with a 4-door JLUR as at my age, the days of hard-core rock climbing are past and Im looking more into overlanding.
In all honesty, if push came to financial shove and I had to dispose of one, the Jeep would be the keeper owing to its versatility.

MX5Jeff

5th July 2020, 23:15

Heard this today—man there was some weird slang back in the 60’s...Jeepster, the Nazz, etc.

https://youtu.be/w-G7-yLFmCQ

Chris Stack

5th July 2020, 23:37

I have a (leased) JL and I go back and forth on it. For the first 18 months I absolutely loved the thing. Couldnt get enough. Then I took it on a 6 hour road trip in a torrential downpour and I had a miserable time in it and just felt tired of it. Then I just brought it up to our cabin for the 4th and have been having a blast with it up here just hopping around town.

Couple thoughts regarding stuff Ive seen in thread:

-Ive off-roader a few times, 2 hard core in an off-road park and several more on our hunting ground which is considerably tamer. I enjoy driving off-road in that Im 8 and love Tonka Trucks way but there is that nagging this thing costs how much and Im doing what with it? Also living in the Chicago burbs I just dont have that much opportunity.

-I got it in large part because I did drive them in Hawaii several times, Alaska, Aruba, etc. and loved them. When I got mine I looked at all sorts of stuff, Acura, BMW and Audi sedans, a Honda Ridgeline, 4Runner, pickups, and they all just seemed really boring and very expensive. The Wrangler was by far the most interesting vehicle for the money with 4 seats.

-I leased because A) first year FCA product and B) I didnt know if Id like a Wrangler. Im still on the fence. My biggest problem is I dont have a good long distance vehicle. I have the S2000 and the Wrangler and they both suck for highway driving over ~2 hours. And now we hardly drive since I work from home and will indefinitely. So hard to justify the Wrangler. But I still might buy out the lease, though the $36k buyout is very optimistic from FCA. Maybe I lease another? I dunno.

-On leased mods, there arent that many you really need unless you are rock hopping hard core like Matt. I have yet to have many obstacles I even needed more aggressive tires than the stock Bridgestone Duelers. The only mods Ive done have been some lighting (front bumper, A-pillar, and tailgate light), Rubicon rock rails because they make the bottom edge look finished, and some really minor odds and ends in the interior. Aside from a couple very small holes cut in plastic, everything is bolt on and reversible so no big deal. If I keep it Id do more aggressive tires (Duratrecs or KO2) and thats really it. It doesnt need anything else for my use.

-On not off-roading, keep in mind the other huge advantages of the Wrangler: its a 4-seat (can be 4-door) convertible, with removable doors (!) and is 100% all weather capable. The damn thing is a Swiss Army knife; with a trailer hitch and the soft top I can haul almost anything. I rented a 24 (collapses to 12) ladder a couple weeks ago, drop the top and bungee it to the roll bar. And with 3500lbs of towing capacity its easy to haul stuff. I also have an aluminum hitch hauler which helps with cargo capacity (threw a 45qt cooler on it this weekend). And its great for in town use with high ground clearance and tight turning radius its great for running errands in town. Basically the only things it sucks at are long distance highway driving and sports car driving.

-finally, I love that they are ubiquitous, completely unpretentious, have a great owner base, and basically no one hates you for driving it. They are just a ton of FUN to have.

MattAlley

6th July 2020, 07:44

I was in the exact same place as you regarding a long-distance vehicle. After years of owning a couple of Elements, I bought the Jeep. Usually when I go a long distance it’s with my wife and we take her transportation pod. But I wound up making more and more five hour trip to the coast, and had to choose between a GT4 and a now pretty hardcore jeep. This is what led to my purchase of the MINI Clubman two years ago. It’s utterly stupid to have all three, but I cannot ever decide which to give up.

MX5Jeff

6th July 2020, 08:29

I understand your points—most of us need a long-distance driver.

The Miata is OK for long trips with 1 person (me) in it. I do feel fatigued at the end. Seats aren’t bad at all; the noise factor is the worst. Might improve with my noise-cancelling Bose earphones. Will have to give them a try.

For long trips note involving outdoors activities, I much prefer my fiancee’s Volvo S60. That thing was made for long car trips.

If outdoor activities are involved, the Taco is the ride of choice. It is actually a pretty nice drive on the road, while still a beast off-road. We drove over 10 hours last week pulling a camper—I drove most of the 600 miles—and I did not feel fatigued or achy at all.

Dry Martini

6th July 2020, 08:39

Fatigue from noise was not a problem for us when doing long trips in the miata. The reason we wore custom made musicians earplugs was to prevent hearing damage. I have been wearing these for years for motorcycle riding, which we do two up for road trips.

Having done multiple trips two up on a bike, the miata is spacious by comparison.

01miatals

7th July 2020, 19:47

Congratulations!

I have a 2020 Recon and love it. The 2.0 engine is fantastic. The 3.6 is also very good and the 8A transmission is smooth. Im very happy with it.

I had a 2019 JLR that was bought back for bad steering and my 20 is remarkably better.

Some photos:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-JdX628j/0/500ebfbc/XL/012C2E24-3E54-4BC4-9EEC-83A1BF6501B6-XL.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-JdX628j/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-GvFn5gq/0/03002431/XL/050620D8-A598-4C7F-ADD4-5A9505BE2ED0-XL.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-GvFn5gq/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-XK7vb6j/0/d5cbd8e1/X2/PlummerRidge-X2.jpg (https://lovegiants.smugmug.com/Jeepin/i-XK7vb6j/A)

wow that is a nice looking jeep. Congrats!

01miatals

7th July 2020, 19:50

No problems with the steering like on the Gladiators? Is the steering the steering box the same as in the Gladiator? Or has the steering issue been resolved? If so, what are the safe years to buy?

I still like the new Wranglers and the Gladiators- pricey- but not going to pay that kind of money and get crappy or defective steering.

I hear there were some issues that have been resolved for 2020. BUT ... its a recirculating ball setup. not much feel to it. Traveling at 80 MPH requires 2 hands on the wheel due to the poor on center feel / dead spot of the steering as well as the wind pushing the jeep around.

NH44

8th July 2020, 22:41

We have a 2019 JL and love it...no steering issues or any other issues. This absolutely blows away our JK in every respect. I’ve had 7 jeeps from as early as a 1960 Willy’s through the JL...loved each one for various reasons.....of those 7 none ever let me down and the resale on the late model stuff is really strong. The JL is my wife’s DD so no hardcore wheeling just light woods/trails etc. The JK got wheeled but the wife did not like the lift or it being filthy all the time. They are not a “car” so yes they are generally inferior on the road but still very fun IMO.

JT58

9th July 2020, 07:12

I have had (6) Jeeps so far- 2 CJ's and 4 TJ's. They are awesome 4 wheelers for trails and a blast to drive around town. I have used the them as daily drivers for commuting- 45 minutes each way and in heavy snow and extremely bad weather no problem. I love my current TJ for driving around town and occasionally for commuting to and from work too. The only time I don't like them is on long trips- and only ones with a soft top. Too noisy. On one of my TJ's I bought brand new I got the dual top option- hard top and soft top. That one I drove very long distance- from MA to MN and in MN, expolring. I had no problem at all. I even towed a small trailer. The TJ was so much quieter with a hard top. It was not the greatest at very high speeds though. In Wisconsin and MN they drive like gang busters on the interstates- 80-100 MPH. The TJ was not happy happy at 85 is all I can say. They JL's must be way better!

Dry Martini

9th July 2020, 07:28

You probably would hate motorcycles. I solved the noise problem a long time ago riding motorcycles. I wear earplugs, and this practice transferred to the Miata on long trips, as well as the RSX-R which had a noisy co*ckpit. :thumbs:

MattAlley

9th July 2020, 08:36

I have 3 sets of plugs in the console of my JK Wrangler -- they are a must-wear on interstate drives, even with the doors on and windows up.

JT58

9th July 2020, 09:17

Actually I LOVE motorcycles. I had two Harleys down here, was ready to get a third, or his and hers Sportsters until my GF's brother got severely injured on a Ducati- brain injury- almost died and now is a vegetable- cannot work, cannot see well and is on permanent disability. Motorcycles are such an exhilarating experience. My son had one when we first moved to Florida- one ride on it around the block and I was permanently hooked.

I also do not mind the wind noise, except for very long trips. I drive around town and on my commute to work, windows down and AC off. Or in the TJ with top up and all windows and upper door windows off (only exception pouring rain). Even in 95 degree temps. That's what living in the north for 50 plus years will do. I love the warmth down here.

Imped

9th July 2020, 09:47

(3.8 V6)

It's a 3.6

Dry Martini

9th July 2020, 10:00

I wear earplugs any time I am on the bike. I am more concerned with hearing minimizing hearing damage.

But no curvy roads and I can do without warm weather. I have lived in the south all my life and warmth is over rated. :D But mostly lack of twisty roads. BIke are made for leaning and knees are meant for dragging. :jump:

BetweenMiatas

9th July 2020, 10:31

I have 3 sets of plugs in the console of my JK Wrangler -- they are a must-wear on interstate drives, even with the doors on and windows up.

But how do you insert all 3 sets? :dunno:

MattAlley

9th July 2020, 10:33

But how do you insert all 3 sets? :dunno:

Deeper and deeper. I use a ball-peen hammer I ground down to ear-canal size.

BetweenMiatas

9th July 2020, 10:43

Deeper and deeper. I use a ball-peen hammer I ground down to ear-canal size.

Once you break your eardrums, the Jeep won't seem noisy at all! :thumbs:

tvrbob

9th July 2020, 13:03

But how do you insert all 3 sets? :dunno:Ever heard the expression, "I'm all ears"?

BetweenMiatas

9th July 2020, 13:12

Ever heard the expression, "I'm all ears"?

tvrbob

9th July 2020, 13:13

Once you break your eardrums, the Jeep won't seem noisy at all! :thumbs:Jeeps have eardisks all around. Tacomas still have eardrums in the rear. AKA reardrums or bumdrums. Unemployed people in the UK, Hawaiian pineapple farmers, and old school Kansas Republicans call them doledrums. Fans of 90's NBC late-night talk shows call them Conandrums. AKA Max Weinbergs.

MX5/XJ6

9th July 2020, 14:21

Deeper and deeper. I use a ball-peen hammer I ground down to ear-canal size.

Like those guys sitting up high on the girder on SNL back in the day......"Doncha hate when that happens??" :rofl:

Franco

24th September 2021, 16:20

Holy crap, I just realized that a JL is almost 1,000 lbs heavier than a TJ. How is that possible? A two-door JL weighs 4,000 lbs!

That One Guy 2

24th September 2021, 18:07

Holy crap, I just realized that a JL is almost 1,000 lbs heavier than a TJ. How is that possible? A two-door JL weighs 4,000 lbs!
Things happened. The JL even took weight-loss measures compared to the JK.

You don't even wanna know what a 2-door 2022 Bronco weighs....

Franco

24th September 2021, 19:22

So for anybody who owns a JL, how does it behave on-road? Is it peppy and fun or does it drive like a lumbering mastodon? A few days ago I test drove a stickshift two-door JL Sport and it didn’t feel like 4000 lbs. Acceleration was pretty good and it felt like a fun car. But that was just a drive around the block. Probably not as fun if you have to travel a few hours on a highway, though.

MX-5inAR

24th September 2021, 20:25

So for anybody who owns a JL, how does it behave on-road? Is it peppy and fun or does it drive like a lumbering mastodon? A few days ago I test drove a stickshift two-door JL Sport and it didnt feel like 4000 lbs. Acceleration was pretty good and it felt like a fun car. But that was just a drive around the block. Probably not as fun if you have to travel a few hours on a highway, though.

I will admit the 2.0T is surprisingly good. It sounds awful, but the engine and transmission work exceptionally well together. The height and short wheelbase of my 2 door make it not as smooth to drive as the 4 door, but I love the look of the 2 door and how nimble it feels in town, and especially off road.

Being used to Porsches and a Miata does the JL no favors. Always felt like I was correcting the steering. Now I don't even notice doing that around town. Less than a week after getting it we drove it 11hrs to Florida. Definitely felt like the trip was made longer going left and right in my lane all the time! :rofl:

I've said it over and over again, but I suspect I would have picked up a 2 door Bronco had they been available. Not that I have any love for Ford, but I would have done anything not to buy a Fiat-Chrysler vehicle (or whatever they are now). But three months in it has certainly won me over. My wife has loved it since day 1, and that's great, since it was what she asked for for her 40th birthday! :)

BetweenMiatas

24th September 2021, 21:17

Beats a nonrunning, rusty Porsche 914 all to heck as a 40th birthday present. :D

rexracerx9

25th September 2021, 12:20

You drove a 3.6 if you tried a manual. It's a good engine but the manual gearing could be improved for better power. The Rubicon is a little better due to the gear ratio. The ZF 8-speed is a better match. The ZF 8-speed automatic is a much better choice for the JL as far as peppy. The 2.0 turbo engine is very peppy due to the torque curve. I have a 2.0 and drive 75-85 mph daily and can pass cars effortlessly. The V8 Hemi is a rocket. I have not driven a diesel. People usually do not associate the world nimble with a Wrangler. The JL is by far the most "nimble" Wrangler to date. Any engine choice has more than enough power to move it along without issues. No problem getting out of it's own way. Most complaints are for steering and wind noise. People complain about the Wrangler steering. Just understand the JL steering box and solid front axle will never feel like a rack-in-pinion with independent front suspension. It takes a little getting used to. Wind noise is definitely louder due to the Wranglers shape. It's a box so not too aerodynamic. The wind noise is usually not an issue unless there are high crosswinds. The JL with hardtop is quieter than my ND RF on the highway most of the time. A soft top JL is probably quieter than my RF. I would have no issues driving a stock JL on a long road trip. I feel the JL is a really fun vehicle to drive for what it is.

Franco

25th September 2021, 15:23

I keep reading comments that the JL (and prior Wrangler too, probably) has a 1 inch steering wheel “dead zone” that causes the car to wander in the lane. Is there any aftermarket fix for that?

rexracerx9

25th September 2021, 22:37

I keep reading comments that the JL (and prior Wrangler too, probably) has a 1 inch steering wheel “dead zone” that causes the car to wander in the lane. Is there any aftermarket fix for that?
I have a '19 Rubicon. Personally I do not think the stock steering is an issue.

There have been several updated suspension and gearbox updates since the 2018 JL. The newest generation steering box and steering dampener improves things. Wranglers are delivered with 50+psi. Most dealers do not lower the tire pressure to the correct psi. Lowering tire pressure to around 34-36 psi helps a lot. This alone can correct the steering feel. Some people install longer control arms to get more adjustability with the alignment.

A Wrangler is not for everyone. Maybe try renting a Wrangler first to see if it is something you like. I LOVE them.

emptyminded42

27th September 2021, 10:36

I keep reading comments that the JL (and prior Wrangler too, probably) has a 1 inch steering wheel dead zone that causes the car to wander in the lane. Is there any aftermarket fix for that?

Mine did - '18 Sport S 4-door. But I got the TSB done to swap the aluminum steering box for steel and it's been perfectly fine since. Huge improvement. People will replace various suspension parts to fix the issue but I don't see any reason to do anything else.

But, it's still a SFA brick so when you're driving on the highway with some wind you're gonna be blown around a bit. But it's fine, IMO.

I actually find that ride/steering quality drops when my tire pressure gets 2-3 psi lower than the door jamb. It's weird. So I keep the tire pressure high. But I do have the basic all-season LT tires and not the A/Ts or M/Ts which could be a big factor.

Overall I find my manual V6 4-door to be quite a nice everyday vehicle. It's comfortable on the highway (just some wind noise) and it's fun to drive around town. Yes, the gearing is a little tall on the 6 speed having 2 overdrives but you get used to it.

Chris Stack

27th September 2021, 11:19

I just spent 5 hours on the highway in mine yesterday. I think the steering thing is overstated; if you come out of a Porsche or BMW or something yeah it’s a lot worse, but it’s perfectly acceptable for what it is. My lighter V6 JLU was tossed around a bit on the highway, especially hitting expansion joints and such, but the additional weight of the 4xe really settles down the ride and gives it more stability. I have zero complaints about the road manners of this one.

Also, JLs are known for coming from the factory with goofy high tire pressure, if you knock it down to something more reasonable (36-38 versus 41+) it helps as well.

That One Guy 2

27th September 2021, 15:54

I keep reading comments that the JL (and prior Wrangler too, probably) has a 1 inch steering wheel dead zone that causes the car to wander in the lane. Is there any aftermarket fix for that?

Part of it is inherent to the stone age design. The Wrangler JL is the last vehicle sold outside of heavy-duty pickups (F-350 and Ram 3500) to use a solid front axle--and therefore recirculating ball steering. Generally, it's vague and inferior to rack-and-pinion steering that nearly any other vehicle uses. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

baritone mike

28th September 2021, 15:38

Solid front axles are still used outside of the US on a few different light/medium duty 4x4's. Like the Land Cruiser and Jimny but yes they are generally "sloppy" but are in no way undriveable. The G Wagon used a solid axle up until 2019.

icrashbikes

29th September 2021, 15:50

Solid axles are pretty good for off-roading.. I think that's the focus.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50079671327_fbe3246b06_h.jpg

01miatals

1st October 2021, 13:31

I like my 2020 JL more so than I thought I would. It wanders a bit on the highway and I keep it below 75. But its a great car on the road, especially around town. ZF 8 speed is excellent (I have the v6 and it is strong enough).

Jeep Wrangler JL [Archive] - MX-5 Miata Forum (2024)

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